How do underwriters evaluate loans to LLCs or land trusts? By effectively guiding a loan from application through underwriting to a successful closing and helping mortgage lenders comply with regulations.
Today, Clint Coons of Anderson Business Advisors talks to Andrew Duane, Associate Attorney at Polunsky Beitel Green, LLP. Andrew’s focus on lender support includes file underwriting, complex loan products, and post-closing matters.
Andrew is Due Diligence Certified (DDC) by the International Due Diligence Organization and a professional member of the State Bar of Texas. Previously, he worked with the firm’s document review and preparation team while attending law school.
Highlights/Topics:
- What if a client or investor wants to refinance a transaction and pull property out of a land trust? Find a lender willing to refinance the property in the name of the trust.
- Why create a living trust? You don’t want to tell the lender to move it out of the trust and have another effect on their asset protection portfolio or other kinds of disastrous effects.
- What was the solution? Convert the land trust into a living trust because all trusts can be amended and restated.
- What is Andrew’s role? He is an attorney that represents lenders. He doesn’t represent individual borrowers, but banks and lenders closing home loans in the State of Texas.
- Why does Andrew perform underwriting and review guidelines? What are lenders like Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac experiencing on origination? Andrew backs up, not just the closing process, but that underwriting process.
- Why is Andrew’s firm the backstop for lenders? There are other attorneys that do this. When the underwriter gets a document such as a land trust or limited liability company (LLC), they don’t understand it and want to make sure it is legitimate and can be used.
- When the loan originator/lender can’t sell it, they don’t want to hold it. They don’t deal with that land trust? When investors/clients talk to their loan officers, Fannie Mae requires direct negotiation for the land trust. Freddie Mac doesn’t. Freddie buys the land trust where they are statutorily authorized and the individual beneficiary is the borrower.
- If the property was in an LLC and it’s a residential loan, would it get across the goal line? It’s doubtful. Fannie and Freddie do not allow for LLCs. In their general borrower eligibility section, they like a natural person.Then, they make exceptions. An LLC for people selling to Fannie and Freddie isn’t possible because it’s a residential mortgage.
- If you put it into a land trust and the land trust is owned by the LLC, you can convert the land trust to a living trust, get the loan, and it doesn’t state your name? If you’re thinking about your structures and you plan to refinance the property, if you don’t want it in your name, consider using a land trust held by an LLC for your asset protection.
- If you buy or close on new investment property, are there any traps to be aware of before going to the lender? Get your documentation ready to go. If it’s closing in a trust, check with the attorney that did it. If it’s been a few years, it might be time to restate and update it. It makes the process smoother all around for borrowers and lenders.
- What’s FHA’s anti-flipping provision? It’s in the HUD handbook. FHA is concerned that houses are going to get flipped for an artificial value and FHA will have to insure all of them. Guidelines and recommendations include waiting 180 days from the time that the deed is delivered, when they acquire legal ownership, to go under contract.
- If you transfer property to yourself, deeded in the corporation, when you list it for sale, and a first-time homebuyer will not qualify because of that transfer? FHA wants the seller on record to be the person making the sale.
- When it comes to putting deals together if you’re a real estate investor, do you need an authorized signer? When selling a property that might be held in an LLC, or you’re with a private bank or wealth company that could close in an LLC, get an authorized signer.
Resources:
International Due Diligence Organization
Federal Housing Administration’s HUD Program
Anderson Advisors Tax and Asset Protection Event
Full Episode Transcript:Â
Clint: Hey everyone. Clint Coons here. In this episode, what I want to do is I want to talk to an individual, he’s an attorney that I think you’re going to really want to listen to when it comes to lending and working with entities.
This individual that I’m bringing on here is someone that I ran across in working with one of my clients when it came to putting the deal together in a land trust. It just really blew me away to find an attorney on the other side. Because we’re always looking at the underwriters as the nemesis, the entities, people that kill our deals.
I actually found someone who understood what it is we were doing and understood the solution. We collaborated on it. I said you know what? You need to get on here because I’ve got a lot of listeners, a lot of people that watch my YouTube that could really benefit from this information. Hearing what goes on behind the screen, kind of like The Wizard of Oz.
What I’d like to do then is to welcome you all to Andy Duane. He’s an attorney with PBG, they’re out of Dallas, San Antonio, and Houston, Texas. He’s an attorney. Andy, thanks for coming on.
Andrew: Clint, thanks for having me. It was great to link up and be able to talk to some of your followers. I looked into Anderson, I think what you all do is great. I’m really excited to be here.
Clint: It’s great because I know people that are watching this right now are going to get a lot out of this because just in our conversations, I’ve learned quite a bit. Just to give people a back story, why you’re here, here’s what came up.
I set up a land trust for a client a number of years ago. He lives on the East coast and he has property in Texas. We set this land trust up, put the property into it, and he decided to refi the property. Now, for a lot of investors, what they’ll do in a refi transaction is pull the property out of the trust and go through that process. But he found a lender that was willing to refi the property in the name of the trust. This is how Andy and I started conversing about this because the trust—as it was set up—was a land trust. When you saw that, Andy, what was your response?
Andrew: Originally it’s a land trust. Fannie and Freddie are a little bit different about that. Fannie Mae says that a lender can close on a land trust if it directly negotiates for Fannie Mae’s approval, and then it has to be in a state that authorizes or it’s common to close a land trust. Unfortunately, right now, Texas is not one of those states compared to Illinois or Florida. When I saw that, I nicely reached back to my client. I said, hey, this is a land trust. Unfortunately, you’re not going to be able to sell it to Fannie Mae out of the state of Texas.
That’s where Clint emailed me back and said, hey, I have this idea. What if we go in and we work on the trust. I said that’s great, I like that idea. Because the first thing lenders and my clients do, and I don’t like this, is they say, hey, let’s move it out of the trust. Let’s move it individually.
I said, hold up, I could tell this person had assets that they were trying to protect and they have a large estate planning portfolio. Let’s not mess with how the title is vested, let’s have them work with the trust, which ended up being Clint, the powers of attorney, and talk about that instead because I don’t want to tell the lender they have to move it out of the trust and have another effect on their asset protection portfolio or other kinds of disastrous effects. We work together on the trust instead. Clint, what was the solution on that one?
Clint: We turned it into a living trust because all trust can be restated. You brought something up there where I want to go a little deeper on so everyone understands it. You’re the attorney that represents the lenders. That’s what you guys do, right?
Andrew: Correct. We don’t represent individual borrowers. We represent banks and lenders closing home loans in the state of Texas. Under Texas Government Code A3.001, an attorney or an attorney’s office has to prepare a warranty deed, a deed of trust, or other mortgage-type documents. Before closing loans in Texas, lenders send us their documents for review and preparation.
Trust me, in the last year and a half in this low rate market, it has been a crazy time. But it’s been a good business. It’s kind of a mix of differences between Fannie and Freddie guidelines, what lenders are experiencing on their origination front. We really back up, not just the closing process, but that underwriting process. That’s why they come to me with trust and ask, hey, would you mind reviewing this and see if it meets Fannie and Freddie guidelines?
Clint: What’s going on here is that most loans are going to be Freddie and Fannie conforming loans because as Andy stated, they’re going to sell them—the broker, the loan originator—is going to sell that loan to Freddie or Fannie. They wanted to conform to their lending guidelines. What Andy’s doing in his firm is they’re the backstop for lenders. There are other attorneys that do this. When the underwriter gets a document like a land trust or limited liability company, they don’t know how to read that stuff. They send it over to Andy and say, hey, is this legit? Can we utilize it?
Andrew: Yeah, that’s exactly what it is. On these trusts, when it comes to me, I’m worried about how the trust is going to look at the time of closing and when my client delivers it to Fannie Mae. A lot of people are directly selling to Fannie Mae at this time. What happens after the loan closes or what happened before when it was restated I’m not concerned with. I’m concerned with the snapshot and time of when the loan closes, does it meet Fannie and Freddie guidelines? When my client delivers it to Fannie Mae, it’s revocable and it meets those guidelines.
What happens after and it might not be an asset […] thing. A spouse might have died, a daughter might be removed from the beneficiary or added as a beneficiary, just for example. Every trust is different, every situation is different. I’m not giving kind of that specific legal advice. I’m just kind of talking generally about what my clients are looking for. When they come over, I look at the trust, I’ll review it, and then I’ll give signatures and guidelines that meet those Fannie Mae requirements for closing.
Clint: In this situation, what Andy said a little bit earlier is that Florida and Illinois are both states that recognize the land trust. Now we use land trust in all 50 states, but when it comes to selling a mortgage if you want to refi property in the name of a land trust. Then Freddie and Fannie are only going to buy those mortgages that originated in Illinois and Florida in those types of land trusts because there are statutes behind them. The loan originator that you’re working with, your lender, can’t sell it. They don’t want to hold it, they’re not going to deal with that land trust, correct?
Andrew: Correct. There is an interesting point when your investors or your clients are talking to their loan officers, Fannie Mae requires that direct negotiation for the land trust. On the other hand, Freddie doesn’t. Freddie does buy land trust and there are some caveats. Freddie Mac buys land trust where they are statutorily authorized, and also where the individual beneficiary is the borrower. There is some kind of wiggle room on Freddie Mac accepting them.
But a lot of times when these loan officers get these land trusts, it kind of spooks them out. That’s where I come in, kind of walking through that difference and educating them. Okay, this is an inter vivos revocable trust. We’ll call it kind of a grandma and grandpa trust set up for estate planning purposes. And then we have a land trust, which has totally different solutions for the problems your clients are facing.
Clint: Okay. Let’s assume that in this situation with our client that trust was in an Illinois-style land trust. I had drafted it for Illinois law, set it up as an Illinois trust, would that have changed this because the property is located in Texas?
Andrew: When you delivered it to me and it said it was a revocable living trust, the documents you gave, that restated and amended, I think that’s fine. I don’t see any concern about what you’re doing. But like I said, every situation is different. I don’t think Fannie or Freddie has ever looked at that on the backside.
Clint: What I’m thinking is this, Andy, not to cut you off here but if we had set it up originally, just left it as a land trust, but in the trust document, when you read the land trust, it stated it was an Illinois land trust holding Texas real estate. Could we have done it with that? Could you have sold a mortgage where it’s an Illinois trust holding property in Texas, or they say because the properties in Texas, a loan originates there, they won’t buy it?
Andrew: Yeah, I think you might run into an issue with that. If you kind of styled it in Illinois land trust but doing it as property in Texas I think we might have run issues. Because Fannie and Freddie want it in states where these types of land trusts are commonly accepted, I think is the word Fannie uses. And then also Freddie goes further and says statutorily authorized.
Clint: Got it. So that wouldn’t have gotten us around it because the property is in Texas, which is not a statutorily authorized land trust state.
Andrew: Yeah. In my legal research, it shows the land trust question has not really come to Texas yet. It really hasn’t been debated, it’s never been raised in court. There are a few cases, and it kind of goes back to this long, boring statute of uses. Clint and I, as attorneys know, it’s not that interesting.
Clint: What we did then is, as you stated, we converted it into a living trust because all land trust can be amended and restated. The process I went through here is I restated the trust as a living trust, so it converted it. Now, there’s nothing to stop horse if you ever wanted to convert it back to a land trust because as Andy stated, at that point in time, once the loan is done they’ve sold it off to Freddie, it doesn’t matter. But here’s what’s interesting. If that property was in a limited liability company and because it’s a residential loan, could he get that across the goal line?
Andrew: I’m doubtful. Fannie and Freddie do not allow for LLCs. In their general borrower eligibility section, they like a natural person, that’s kind of this gold standard. Then they make exceptions, and the biggest exception to that is a revocable living trust or land trust, and then there are some other rarely used. But an LLC for people selling to Fannie and Freddie, that’s not possible.
Clint: Because it’s a residential mortgage, right?
Andrew: Say it again, excuse me.
Clint: Because it’s a residential mortgage and not a commercial and they won’t write that.
Andrew: Correct, for people selling to Fannie and Freddie. But if you do have clients that are using private banks, high wealth, ultra-wealthy individuals, those lenders are willing to lend on LLCs. I do see those and I review those as well for some other clients. If you have a bank that is keeping something—a portfolio, they might be willing to accept an LLC as a mortgagor under the security instrument.
Clint: For people that are watching this right now, I talked a lot about using land trust and limited liability companies, and people will say, Clint, you contradict yourself sometimes. I get it, I’m blond, I forget what I said earlier. The thing that comes up for me is when you’re buying real estate, I try to make it as simple as possible. Just put it in LLC. There’s a video I did on the due on sale clause showing how it’s not an issue with Freddie or Fannie now.
Then I’m thinking to myself, if we use the land trust in this situation. Let’s say I’m an individual, I never want to see the property hit my name because if I put my property on LLC, in order to go through with the loan process I got to pull it out. But instead, if I put it into a land trust and have the land trust owned by the LLC, then I could go through a process where I convert that land trust to a living trust, get the loan—Freddie-Fannie conforming loan where I’m listed as the beneficiary—and it never hits my name, right?
Andrew: Yeah. Like I said, each trust, each situation is different, there are different structures. But when it comes to my desk, if it meets Fannie and Freddie guidelines and they’re selling to Fannie or Freddie, I’ll get the go-ahead because I’m worried about what’s going to happen at closing and what’s going to happen when they deliver that loan to Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Why is it going to go on pre-closing, post-closing, I don’t think is the wonder, we’re really concerned with that. We’re concerned, at the time of closing, does it meet those guidelines, and can my client sell on that market?
Clint: What’s important is—I hope people are pulling out of this—that when you’re thinking about your structures and if you’re thinking down the road, you plan to refi the property. Then if you don’t want it in your name, consider using a land trust held by an LLC for your asset protection.
But when you go about that refi, this is where I see a lot of people screw up because attorneys like yourself who have to review these docs, the client applies for the loan, the underwriter asks for documentation on the entity. They send it over without contacting my office, it happens so often. Then what happened with the individual? He set it up and he didn’t contact me beforehand. He just transferred or sent you the docs and then I had to get involved. Had he talked to me beforehand, we could have set the package up where you got it and it looked like a living trust. You’d be like, that works, that’s Freddie, Fannie conforming.
Andrew: That’s what was presented to me. We spoke before this, for investors or people out there going out and getting these loans, especially in this hot interest rate market, if you have LLCs, if you have trust, if you have anything that Clint and his team has set up before you go to your loan officer with your documentation, go talk to Clint, go talk to your attorney, check-in with them. Say, hey, I want to get a mortgage on this property that is part of my asset protection or estate planning portfolio. I think that will save a lot of headaches.
I’ve seen borrowers give my clients 350 pages and I just need 30 of it for the living trust. They’re saying the durable power of attorney, the medical directive. That’s why I’m definitely recommending—for these people going out to get loans—talk to your attorney first. If you have a trust, if you have an LLC, go check-in before you get that refinance thing or refinance process started just to save headaches all around. It makes the mortgage process a lot smoother.
Before I was an attorney, I worked as a mortgage processor, and a lot of times people get in trust documents, LLC, sometimes underwriters processors, they’re not reading it. You need an attorney to read it, unfortunately. That’s why go check in with Clint. He might be able to provide a certificate of trust that states that the trust in question does meet those Fannie Mae guidelines. That makes from the loan process to closing, if it’s a cash-out—getting your money and going to buy another property a lot easier, and it saves a lot of headaches.
Clint: Now, are there any traps you would tell people who are watching this that are considering just getting a loan to buy a new property. Because I believe we’re talking about a lot of refi, but this still applies no matter what. If you’re going to buy or close on new investment property, are there any traps that they should be aware that they should focus on before going to their lender?
Andrew: Just get your documentation ready. If it’s closing in a trust, checking with the attorney that did it. If it’s been a few years before you did it, it might be time to restate it and update it. Also, for people that are coming in, just get your documents ready and ready to go. It makes the process a lot smoother all around for the borrowers, at the same time the lenders, and then people closing.
Clint: Can I close in a trust? Forget about the refi now. Let’s assume that I’ve got this property in the contract and I want to close in a trust, is that possible if it’s a living trust in Texas?
Andrew: Fannie and Freddie do allow for, I think Fannie calls it, an inter vivos revocable trust, and then Freddie Mac calls it a living trust. For those estate planning trusts, the basic requirements are that it be created by the borrower. The borrower is the set where we will do one set or one trustee, one beneficiary type setup. It was created during their lifetime and takes effect during their lifetime. It has to be an express inter vivos trust that rules out, testamentary trust, a trust that we’re creating grandma and grandpa’s will that you might be the trustee and beneficiary of now. Also, it has to be irrevocable, it has to be amenable, and can be terminated by the settlor.
Other things to consider. The trustee should either be the settlor or the borrower. Then Fannie Mae does allow for an institutional trustee, which could be a bank and trust company. Or in my opinion, Fannie Mae does allow for an attorney to be the trustee, if you’re worried about it, don’t sign me up because I know how many pages you have to sign. I draft those docs every day. I know what you’re talking about, Clint. I know why you’re smiling. It’s a lot, but that is an option. I think I ran into one.
A few months ago we had a client come to me and he said, hey, my borrower is big on YouTube. He’s an influencer, he has a big media presence, and he’s worried about his privacy now. But Fannie and Freddie typically want that borrower to also be the trustee who is an institution. I said an attorney has a fiduciary duty. We checked with Fannie Mae, and Fannie Mae said yes, an attorney would be okay. In my opinion, that’s allowed.
That trustee has to have the power to borrow money, mortgage property, and that’s the basic requirements for Fannie and Freddie. They’re a little bit more in-depth with different situations. Like I said, every trust is structured differently. Every title is vested all different. There’s underwriting, title insurance concerns. But just those basic requirements for that trust structure allows you to purchase a property in a living or an inter vivos revocable trust.
Clint: Okay. We’ve talked a lot about buying investment properties for people who are going to hold it long term, rent it out. We discussed earlier—you and I before we did this—about flipping. I hadn’t thought about this, but you brought up something that’s really important to people who buy and sell property. There’s an anti flipping provision or something like that you’re describing to me, can you talk about that?
Andrew: What we talked about was the FHA Anti-Flipping, part of the HUD handbook. FHA is concerned that these houses are going to get flipped for an artificial value and moved down long. They are worried about FHA ensuring all those. They have these guidelines in place for—I guess your investors would have a house. I’d recommend waiting 180 days from that time that the deed is delivered, when they acquired legal ownership, to go under contract.
The reason is FHA will not insure a loan to a borrower when the seller on record acquired the property in less than 90 days. Unless it was through inheritance is the only exception that might apply to an investor. They won’t accept it at all and won’t ensure it. There is a caveat from 91 days to 180 days, so that’s going out for about three to six months, they’ll require two appraisals for that transaction. Which if it’s a $100,000, $200,000, $300,000 house, could add up cost. Then those appraisals control that value, there’s a formula. I can send you the provision of HUD handbook that you can send out to your clients.
My best advice is if you’re flipping, if you’re using the BRRRR method and you’re buying this, you have people coming in that you know are going to be FHA borrowers. That’s a lot of first-time home buyers that are hot in this market right now. If Biden passes that $15,000 tax credit for first-time homebuyers, I think we’ll see you in more at least FHA loans, these low down payment requirements.
But after 180 days, when the seller on record acquires the title to when they signed the purchase contract, let’s say 181 days, FHA doesn’t have a problem. I know that’s a little bit of time that six months to wait and hold property before you sell it, but if you have borrowers that aren’t making a large down payment and are going to go FHA, you could run into that issue.
Clint: When you’re telling me this, my head’s spinning. I’m going to argue, what’s a workaround for it? If I wanted to get that property under contract, if I could get the rehab done within two months and I want to get it under contract with a buyer right away. But I still understand that if they’re a first-time homebuyer, they’re going through FHA, they’re going to struggle there because they’re not going to be able to close on it.
How about if I sold it to them on an installment sale? I tie them up, I take down some down payment money, and then they hold it and I have in there that they have to refi the property. Could I do this and make them refi within 180 days, or is there a balloon mortgage or something like that which would throw it off?
Andrew: That’s a great question. I haven’t really thought about that from that side. It’s been a while since I’ve been on the origination side.
Clint: I know it’s not your wheelhouse as the attorney because you’re not the originator.
Andrew: No, but I think that’s interesting. I think I’m probably going to run that. Like I said, I’ve been in the mortgage industry for a while. I had a brother, mother, dad that are LOS and running a mortgage company. I’m going to run that situation by them and I’m going to check back and see what they say about that.
Clint: Let me know and I’ll put it in the show notes. Just thinking if I was in that situation, I’d want to make sure I got that buyer, got them tied into the property so I know that that property is sold. Providing that they can qualify, so they have a pre-qual letter that they would be able to buy it. It’s interesting. Your point is that people should be aware of. If you’re flipping property and you know that you’re going to be selling it to first-time homebuyers, hey, there’s something that could throw you off.
Andrew: The big thing I see come about is people transfer it from their LLC to them as individuals to do the sale for some reason. Or they had moved it around or they had conveyed it first asset protection or estate planning purposes, and that triggers a conveyance. When my client gets that FHA guarantee as part of that documentation, they need a 12-month chain of title. If you do have it in the LLC already, don’t transfer if you know you’re going under contract, you’re going to flip it, and you have even an inkling that it’s going to go FHA financing.
Clint: Whoa, okay. What I just heard you say is that if I have it in an entity, I’m thinking about selling it, and I decided I don’t want it in that LLC, I wanted it in the corporation. If I were to transfer that property to myself, deeded in the corporation, or just deed it directly in the corporation, when I list it for sale, there is a first-time homebuyer coming to buy that. They are not going to qualify because of that transfer?
Andrew: FHA wants this seller on record to be the person making the sale. They won’t allow for any sale or an assignment of a sales contract, and when that conveyance hits, that’s when the clock starts. It’s all different for each state, but in Texas, it’s when they acquired legal ownership. That would be in Texas, when they get the deed delivered to them. It’s usually on the date of the deed or the date of the acknowledgement.
Let’s just say for the date of the deed, for that purpose we’ll assume that’s when it was delivered. They want that clock to start then when they acquire the legal ownership to 90–80 days. If you’re thinking about conveying from one entity to another, just be wary and be aware that that could be an issue you might run into selling it to someone that might be getting FHA financing.
Clint: How about if I had the seller for instance was a land trust where the corporation was the beneficiary and I’m selling it out of this land trust. Would the mortgage originator ask for copies of that trust so you could review them to ensure that the trust could convey title?
Andrew: I wouldn’t, from my perspective, because I represent the bank and lenders that are making these loans to the borrower. On the seller side—that land trust or however that’s set up—the person selling it, that might be reviewed by the title insurance company. The title insurance company is going to go in there.
If it’s a trust, they want to make sure the trustee has the ability to sell and convey the trust property if they require the direction of the beneficiaries in that case of the land trust. Or in the case of an LLC, they want to make sure that the LLC has the ability to complete the transaction. It wouldn’t be reviewed from my side in the case of a seller, but it might be reviewed by a title insurance company that would be ensuring the transaction.
Clint: Yeah. I’m going to need to get someone from a title company on here and get that out as well because I can see that. That would be important to make sure that there aren’t going to be any hiccups from the seller side with your documents.
This has been great. Is there anything else that you think that we need to get out that people should be aware of when it comes to putting these deals together if you’re a real estate investor?
Andrew: I think what I ran into last week. I said earlier that we were reviewing LLCs. I see an issue that comes up that some of these LLCs are set up as just single-member, single-managed LLCs. Yes, it works because it will be vested in the entity. But when it comes down to signing, especially that somebody’s worried about their privacy or might be in the public eye a little bit, I think in this case it was a professional athlete. He got the closing and he called my office. He says, hey, I don’t want to sign this. I don’t want my name on any of the docs. I said, okay, let’s think of a solution.
That’s what an authorized signer might come in handy. When you’re going to sell a property that might be held in an LLC, or if you’re with a private bank or wealth company that could close in an LLC and you’re worried about your privacy, look in to maybe doing a resolution that appoints an authorized signer to sign on behalf of the LLC or even another manager that has the power to act independently.
I think that’s a good solution and a good workaround especially, let’s say, if someone is a professional athlete or famous from the public eye and worries about their privacy. Say for instance, doctors, I know use a lot of LLCs and trust in their asset protection. That’s just something I want to touch on that we talked about. Do you have any other questions for me, Clint?
Clint: No, I don’t. I just want to thank you for taking the time to come on here and share this information because, like I said, I’ve been excited about this. There’s so much that comes into getting loans and putting them together the right way. When you’re under contract with someone, you don’t want to screw it up and have to go back and ask for an extension because I’ve been there. If you’ve got money down that’s gone hard and the seller says, no, you could be in problems.
Andrew: I understand. It was a pleasure. I look forward to speaking to you here soon.
Clint: Likewise. Thank you.
Andrew: Thank you.
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