House Flipping Loans & The Real Estate Investor

Myself, I used to flip in the Las Vegas market for number of years. I can tell you; I always used my own money. The reason why is because when I started flipping, I just couldn’t find someone to finance those deals. I hated having to tie up my own funds into my deals because a, there’s risk in that. Why take the risk yourself when you can push the risk onto someone else with those deals? As the market evolved, there have been a lot of players that have come into the market. A lot of people promise great things, or loan on certain deals, maybe they’ll do a 90/90 loan and you’re thinking, “That’s great. I can get in on that.” But then you find out the details. You don’t qualify. They’re also going to kill you in cost to put that deal together and also, your profit is going back to the lender.

I’m happy to have on today Paul Jackson and Rick Morgan from Residential Capital Partners. They’re out of Dallas, Texas. I met these individuals at a real estate conference and it really intrigued me when I start digging into their business and what they offer to real estate investor clients. I thought to myself, “You know what, I just need to get them on the podcast.” Because I know many of you listeners out there could definitely benefit from what they’re offering. Without anymore from me, let me just introduce Paul and Rick. Hey, guys. Thanks for coming on.

Paul: Good morning! Thanks for having us.

Clint: Let me get this straight, you guys are in Dallas right now, correct?

Paul: That’s correct.

Clint: Are you all Texas natives? Because […] that you […].

Paul: My family came through Tennessee onto Tulane, Texas and Rick’s did as well. We’ve been here a long time, so I guess we’re Texas natives now.

Clint: What is it you didn’t like about Tennessee? Why did you go over to Texas?

Paul: Who knows man. Just opportunity, I guess. […] was an ancestral decision. Of course, Nashville’s blowing up now so it’s a hot market.

Clint: Yeah. It’s not like Californians who just get tired of all those crazy policies and the people that live there and they want to get away from them. You guys actually moved there for other reasons, for business opportunities.

Paul: That’s right. Absolutely.

Clint: Just on the side, Paul, for you, when I was going through your profile, I saw that you worked for, was it, Staubach Capital Partners? Was that the famous quarterback?

Paul: It is. It was Roger Staubach. He was my childhood hero and had the opportunity to work for him at the Staubach Company, in Staubach Capital Partners. He ultimately sold his company to Jones Lang LaSalle and he’s still actively involved in that business which is primarily a real estate broker business. But Jones Lang has got a big footprint. But he sold out probably 10 years ago and then we started looking for other opportunities and one of the ones we found immediately upon looking was an opportunity to loan money into single family residential market. It’s neophyte style, this an industry, and over the last 10 years, we’ve seen it grow into a full institutional industry that has got all the names associated with any other sector of growth of real estate or real estate investment looking to provide capital and to borrowers in the space.

Clint: Now, Rick. Did you guys work together at Starbuck Capital management?

Rick: No. Paul and I met about 12 years ago doing some real estate development in Texas. When the opportunity to form risk cap came along, we took advantage of that opportunity and made it one of our companies that we own and operate.

Clint: Got it. You, yourself, have said you’re a CPA or used to practice at one point in time?

Rick: A long time ago, debits and credits.

Clint: You just got tired of doing that?

Rick: Well, accounting for me was always a means to an end. The end being starting a business and building it and creating loyal through ownership much like purchasing and flipping houses. Our expertise and knowledge and relationships with institutional investors and banks empowered us to provide a lending service to this industry that enhance our ability and make profits in it versus doing the buying and the flipping ourselves. That’s how we plugged in; we’re pretty good at it.

Clint: I can imagine having a CPA on board to keep everyone else in line so that you can say, “Hey, we can’t sell at a loss and make it up in volume on these loans, that we actually have to go about it methodically to make sure the numbers lined-up.” I guess that’s a boon to have in that type of business. I can see why they probably brought you in.

Rick: Sure. I mean, accounting is the language of business and no one […] the dollars are going out and coming in. It’s a real one no matter what you’re doing.

Clint: Exactly. Alright. Let’s talk about your company. Residential Capital Partners started in 2009. I heard you say that at that point in time, when you got in, it really wasn’t an area that was targeted. Now, it’s becoming more mainstream, loaning to people. When you started this company, was it with this in mind that you’re going to work primarily with people who flip real estate? Is that correct?

Paul: That’s correct.

Clint: What attracted you to that segment of the market?

Paul: You know, we actually got involved in this segment of the market during the downturn and the banks were selling off a lot the bad assets and they were taking in TARP money. We were bidding on a lot of distressed debt that was single family backed. We were looking for a partner that would help us and so we partnered up with a local franchise-based company here in Dallas named HomeVestors which uses their tag phrase, “We Buy Ugly Houses,” as a way of attracting of new franchisees and growing their business. We use their franchise network nationwide to help us underwrite debt acquisition of single-family distressed paper. Out of that came the opportunity to start loaning money into the segment. We kind of came at it through one angle and came out the other side as a lender.

Clint: Nice.

Rick: I think that’s kind of how we got in..

Clint: I bet you’ve just seen an explosion then in your business over the past five, six years.

Paul: Yeah. As the economy returned to normal and all the trauma of the global financial crisis healed, we’ve seen a lot of growth in our balance sheet over the past five, six years for sure. For a period of time, post-downturn, a lot of the real estate investors that were out there were a little bit nervous on the flip side. They knew they could fix the house. But will there be somebody there to buy it? I think the credit has returned to the borrowers; they are looking for a house to purchase for themselves. But there’s also been a wave of what we will call the millennial that are looking to rent a house. They’ve been in an apartment, they’ve started a family, they’re looking for a backyard and so the real estate investor’s little portfolios have been growing. We’ve seen that. All that has fueled our business and has fueled the growth of this industry.

Clint: Nice. Okay. Let’s just get into these loans because I work with a lot of real estate investors who flip property and I’m always hearing problems that they’re having with their hard money lender either getting the deal together, figuring out what they’re actually going to receive. Many times they get shocked when they find out that when it comes to putting the deal together, the money that they thought they’re going to have for the rehab really isn’t there, that they had to put in 30% first before they would get any money from the lender.

If you can just walk the listeners through to begin with, if I was a new customer, I was coming to you, what’s going to make me want to work with you for my hard money loan? What is it that you offer that makes you different as you say?

Rick: That’s a great question. We think the foundation of any good loan is consistent delivery of good communication and clarity and understanding the terms of what the relationship is and how the money is priced and structured and in doing what you say you’re going to do. We have adopted a culture, we have a […] right, we live to that right, we don’t bait and switch, we don’t offer customers lots of options, “Here’s what we do. Here’s how we do it.” We’ll give you information and feedback in your deal very, very quickly.

Time is the most important thing in any renovator and flipper of houses. They don’t want to spend three or four weeks on a 30-day contract trying to pull financing together and then find out at the last minute that there’s a change or a no. One of our motto is we want to have the fastest no in the business because if for some reason we can’t perform, we want you to know about it quickly, so you can take action and get your deal done perhaps somewhere else.

Our terms are very basic and I’m happy to discuss, as I was generally with you this morning, but clarity and consistent delivery of service we think are vital. We think we offer the best terms in the industry and we want to offer superior terms to superior customers, so we are reluctant to do business with people that had never done it before. But if you’ve done a few rehabs and you’ve got some experience and some skins on the wall as it were, we can underwrite you and close you very quickly. Our goal is to make you a repeat customer.

Clint: Got it.

Paul: I think the terms that Rick speaks to besides clear communication, we want to be borrower-minded and that’s why we structured the loan terms to be 100% of the dollars up to 65% of the actual repaired value of the house and we’ll allow the borrower to pay the origination points of the loan on the backend. We feel what that does is it keeps cash in the borrower’s pocket which in a fix and flip business, cash is key, and staying healthy in your cash position during investment period is gain, and so we feel that’s a differentiating factor for us. A lot of lenders will come in at 85% or 90%. We feel like giving 100% of the dollars up to 65% if the deal makes sense. It keeps the borrowers healthier and allows them to realize profit over the term and keeps the money in their pocket.

Clint: I want to come back and go into that a little more detail and put to you a scenario. I’m going to give you the example and then I’d like you to walk us through what it would take to put this deal together if I was looking to borrow from you. Let’s assume that I found a house and the acquisition price of this property is $100,000 and that’s what it’s going to cost me. Then the ARV value is going to be, let’s say, $200,000. We got $100,000 and $200,000 just to keep the number simple.

I want to come to you for a loan, what would the terms be? What will I be looking at? How much would I have to come with? What I have to put down? What is going to be my interest rate? What is going to be the term? How much are you going to lend to acquire the asset? How much are you going to lend if we figure that the rehab budget is going to be $50,000? How much would you load against that?

Rick: Sure. We can work with those figures. Our company makes up loans the following way: we will make a 9-month loan and we will advance to our borrow customers 100% of purchase in repairs up to 65% of appraised values. If the house is worth $200,000, we would loan up to $130,000. If your repairs were $30,000 and you bought it for $100,000, we’d loan […]. If your repairs are $35,000 then you’ve got to come up with the extra $5000 yourself. I think the instance you mentioned was $50,000.

Virtually, all of our loans are what we would call rehab loans, cosmetic types of rehab that do not include major renovations, additions a square footage, that sort of thing. Repairs are smaller percentage of the total out-of-pocket cost. But we will advance our customers 100% of purchase and repair cost up to 65% of appraised value of the house. In the instance you mentioned a $200,000 house, we’d loan $130,000 on it.

We will charge our customers a simple app fee, we don’t charge the app fee until we’re already approved subject to appraisal or review of the collateral. It doesn’t cost so many things to apply. Once the loan is approved, title work will get done, we’ll close the loan in 7-10 days. We charge 10% interest payable monthly, only on the amount that you borrow. If you’re not borrowing money for repairs, if you haven’t asked for repair money yet, we don’t charge you interest on money you haven’t borrowed. We charge points on the loan but rather than collect the points at origination—as virtually all of the lenders do—we collect the points at maturity when you’ve sold the house and collect your profit.

Our goal is really to keep that customers liquid as possible so if they have a $2000, or $3000 mistake or they come up and the want to spend a little more money upgrading the property, they’ve got the capital to do it. Obviously, they’ve got the capital to pay us our interest along the way. It’s a very simple program. We don’t have different rates for folks. We don’t make, “Oh well, you’ve been in business for a long time. We’ll cut our rate for you.” It’s pretty much one-shop, one-product, no gimmicks, no asterisks, no small print; here’s what we do, here’s how we do it.

We file a first land mortgage on the property at the courthouse. We do not make loans to individuals. Our borrower, for example, if we were going to do a loan for Coontz Rehab, LLC., we would loan your company the money to buy the little house and fix it up and sell it. We don’t make consumer loans.

Clint: Got it. Let’s just talk about that ARV value. I’ve run into my clients before running into issues with figuring out what is the true ARV on her property, how do you address that?

Paul: Well, first, we ask them—as a part of submitting their property application—to include three comps which gives us an insight into how well they know their business, how well they know their market, and we ask usually for those comps to be within a half-mile radius of the home that they’re submitting on the property application. And then we verify those comps with internal research engines that we use. One of them is Red Bell Report which is a national […] whole comps for us. We compare the comps that Red Bell generated.

A lot of times the comps are the same. If a customer knows their business, a lot of time they are different, but still supportive of the transaction. And then we compare those comps from Red Bell, not only to the borrower’s submitted comps, but also to all the information that’s out of the internet, and metadata from Twilio to Zillow to House Hacker. We’ve got all sorts of tools to be able to zero in on what the ARV is and should be.

Clint: So then, using my example again, let’s assume then that we start the rehab work and my GC then asks for withdraw of $10,000. What’s the process there?

Rick: That’s a great question. One of the things that we do as part of our underwriting and original close with you is we would ask you to send us a repair budget, itemizing the improvements that you want to make in the property and the dollar value associated with those improvements. As Paul and I mentioned earlier, we really don’t get involved in major renovations or square footage additions. The numbers associated with carpets, cabinets, kitchens, roofs, and air-conditioning are generally understood by […] and put that number is and understood by our borrowers.

You would submit to us a repair budget at the time you bought the house and closed the house. We would set aside 100% of your repair budget to have available for you so there’s always money there for you to get when you finish through. If you finish a section of repairs, you would submit a repair withdrawal request, funding request, for those items that you completed. You would check off all of the items that you have completed, we send an inspector out within 48 hours to confirm you really did do the paint, you really did put the cabinets in, then we reimburse you that money through ACH or wire into your account.

We do not normally request or require a lot of backup paperwork. If you told us $1800 to paint it, once it’s painted, we send you $1800. If you had it painted for $1600, fine. If it cost you $2200, you got to spend the difference. You told us when you bought the house, you have a budget of $1800 for paint, that’s what we send. Sometimes, when you have major improvement like maybe a septic or a major foundation issue, we may ask for a third-party contractor to bid but that’s not normal. We want to make it as quick and easy not only on you but on us as well. We’d advance those funds, you get reimbursed, and you’d go to the next repair cycle.

Clint: How long does that typically take to get money on that? Because if I’ve got contractor looking for their $2000 so they can go out and hit it on this coming Friday night…

Rick: A couple of days.

Clint: A couple of days. Okay. Because you’ve got to get an inspector out there, you said, right?

Rick: Right.

Clint: Got it. In my example where we’re $20,000 over on the rehab, who’s money gets spent first? If the rehab budget is $15,000, you’re telling me you’re only going to loan me $30,000 of that rehab.

Rick: We set aside 100% of your repair budget in a repair escrow and a repair reserve account. Because we want to assure ourselves that you’ve got all the money you need to fix that house. If there is an overage on the transaction, you would come with that difference at the closing of that house itself. The good news is, 100% of your repair budget is set aside and reserved for you beginning day one.

Clint: That’s what I thought I heard you say, and I wanted to nail that down. Now, with that in mind, let’s assume then I need then to come to the table with $20,000 to acquire this property. If I’m bringing that money into the deal, one of the issues that we run into a lot—a lot of my clients run into a lot—with lenders is they want to see where the funds came from. They either want a trace, they want to see seasoned funds, let’s assume that they’re getting the money from Fred, who’s going to joint venture on this project, do you have requirements where you need to trace that $20,000 bringing to close or is it, “Hey, we’ve got the $20,000. Great. The deal is a deal.”

Rick: You’re digging pretty deep in the weeds. It’s a great question. What we try to do in our business is separate the credit and the liquidity from the property decision itself. When a person goes to our website—and I would encourage all the listeners to do that—we will have them apply with us as a customer, we will perform all the background checks, the confirmation of experience, we’ll ask you to submit a couple of HUD statements from your prior renovations to confirm you really know what you’re doing, we’ll ask you to send us a sample copy of a recent bank statement and we can confirm your liquidity.

We are not doing deep dives with customers because this is a collateral-driven industry. What we want to make sure is that you are an outstanding citizen and you’ve got enough money to pay your bills while we’re waiting on this house to make your profit and protect and act as collateral for our loan.

Clint: Okay. If you’ve got to bring in money to the table itself, where does that money need to come from? Does it come from your personal account? One of the issues that I see a lot with people who are looking to get started is they may not have a ton of cash in their savings account. Let’s assume that they have $100,000 in an IRA and they have access to those funds, we can get them those funds saved by rolling into a solo 401(k) and they take a loan out of $50,000 or maybe they just want to do the deal in their solo 401(k) or self-directed IRA. With your business guys, does this pose any problem? Have you done those types of deals?

Rick: Sure. We’ve done those deals. I wouldn’t say that they’re majority of our business but it’s enough of a percentage that we notice. We obviously, we don’t give tax advice regarding the tax compliance associated with self-directed IRAs or 401(k) money, but we have seen it done. It is useful too. Many of our customers use it. We want to make sure in our loan that you have ample cash reserves to pay your interests as it comes due and to fund the repairs for that working capital cycle pending our reimbursement to you of your repair money. We have occasions where our borrowers will utilize the fund benefit in 401(k) and self-directed money to make that happen, absolutely, we can do that.

Clint: Okay. One of the issues that we run into when we’re using those types of funds would be recourse. If you ask the borrower, the individual that’s going to be doing the deal, to sign the personal guarantee. Is that something that you require or is it strictly an asset-based loan?

Rick: The fund benefit, 401(k), SEP IRA, IRA kind of money, does impose on both parties, us and the borrower, us and the rehabber, certain amendments to a standard loan set. Frankly, the risk posed with using tax deferred savings to fund a purchase and rehab of a house, the risk associated with not performing on that and the tax implication of that are frankly as severe or more severe than a personal guarantee. The people that use that money, they’re invariably are very, very careful to make sure they use it well and pay us because the tax man can be more burdensome on their failure than we are. On most occasions where that money is used, we typically don’t have a lot of problems because people that use that money have more than a problem with the lender if they’ll go South.

Clint: Yes. What I’m wondering is, do you require them to provide a personal guarantee? Because they can’t provide a personal guarantee if they’re using those funds. That would be a prohibited transaction for them. If they came to you and they want to put a deal together and they’re using those funds, that would be a non-starter for them. I’m just trying to determine how you set that up.

Rick: Personal liability on personal guarantees associated with loans or proceeds coming from a self-directed plan as you’ve accurately described, is a problem and so we don’t require that. There are methods and ways of borrowing against IRA money and having other ability to utilize that capital besides just having the IRA itself own the house. We work to make sure that we comply on our side of the deal on every transaction that’s done. Obviously, we can’t speak to the tax advice for your listeners on their side, but we are aware of what those pitfalls and issues are, and we deal with it.

Clint: Alright. Got it. I gave the scenario, and before we talk about any more of that scenario and what you guys thought about it, if I was going to come to you to get qualified, because one of the things I tell people over and over again is that you have to go through and get your power team together and get all your ducks lined up in a row so then when an opportunity presents itself, you’re ready to take action and you’re not running around trying to find who’s going to fund this deal. You already know the lender’s funding criteria, you’re already pre-approved with them, so when the funds are needed, you just got to turn over the packet of information that they require and then that deal can be put together, as you stated, relatively quickly.

If I was getting started then, some of the things that often come up for investors would be credit scores, you look at their credit score. What is the minimum credit score to qualify for one of your loans? How about proof of funds? What would they do? Would they go to your website and fill something out? Or you can speak to them?

Paul: Yeah, that’s the first thing that we do is we direct them to our website, ask them to submit their personal information, submit their one month of their bank balance sheet, their tax information, W2, give us the ability to and authorization to pull a credit report because that’s our first step in establishing relationship is. How strong are they? What can they handle? In some instances, there may be an approval for $200,000 in one loan; in other instances it maybe $600,000 in three loans based on their experience.

Rick: Our goal is to get you approved as a customer before we ever look at your first property acquisition because we don’t want you or us to be slowed down by credit decisions when you’re in the midst of trying to close the house. Anyone that makes the minimum credit criteria for say, an FHA mortgage—your listeners are probably familiar with that—below 600s kinds of credit score, anyone that’s got basic credit information and background on credit score and performance equal to base requirements for an FHA or Fannie or Freddie mortgage would meet our requirements.

We’d ask you to have enough, ample cash reserves on hand to be able to add it or pay your interest plus fund a few of your repairs until you can submit a repair budget. That number varies based on size of the house and the money involved. I would rather lead your listeners to the website for that information but we can underwrite and close the credit aspect of our relationship with you and get you approved as a customer and prepare to issue proof of funds, letters or have you submit houses for funding. We can go through that process in a couple of days.

Clint: That’s just great because that is one of the things that, like I said, investors should be handling right away. They need to be giving their lender lined up, they know how much they can borrow already, they’ve already gone through the approval process, you tell them they should have a title company lined up as well, so that they know exactly how they’re going to close and it’s not going to create an issue with the title company. Because as you stated, what I heard is, you only work with people who have LLCs and business entities. You’re not working with individuals, correct?

Rick: That is correct. Also, virtually, all of our customers have already done a few rehabs before we found them. Frankly, they’ve already gone through the process a couple of times. We confirm your experience by asking you to send us copies of selling HUDs where you sold a couple of houses you flipped, and seasoned people know exactly how to do that, and it goes very quickly. Every once in a while, we’ll have someone apply who might have great cash, great job, lots of money, great credit but they’ve never done a deal before. We’re really not the place for you to start because frankly, we offer some of the best terms in the entire industry and we like to make sure that we’re dealing with customers who are among the best in the industry as well.

Clint: Yeah, I mean I saw that. You make 10%, 3 points paid on the backend, that’s very attractive. Two people who are in the space in looking to put deals together. Now, what I want to end with here is I gave an example. I knew giving you the example what you might think about it, tell us because we were talking about this at break, about the example I gave you and why did customers that are getting involved in real estate, flippers obviously, why do they fail? Maybe use the example that I gave you as an example to illustrate it.

Rick: That’s a great question. The first rule of any business—and certainly the first rule of flipping houses—is make sure that whatever happens, you live to fight another day. When customers fail in this business, when rehabbers and flippers of houses fail, they invariably fail either they run out of money or they run out of time and they couldn’t complete the job. If you pay too much for a house, it’s really, really hard to dig out.

You gave an example earlier that we’ve discussed of $100,000 purchase with $50,000 of repairs, that’s $150,000 on a house that has an appraised value of $200,000. On the day you walk out of that titled company with the date and the keys, you’re in that deal at 75% on the dollar. You’ve got to put on top of that interest in churn costs, taxes, closing costs, you’re going to sell the house and maybe pay a real estate broker to sell for you, you might be netting ¢92, ¢93 when you sell it by the time you pay your selling expenses. You’ve got another 8 or 10 points of interest carry and another couple of points of interest in taxes. Your basis is going from 75 to maybe 84 and you’re only receiving ¢92 or ¢93.

In the instance you gave us, an example you gave us, you’re going to be out-of-pocket well North of $30,000 and your profits is going to be in the $12 to $15 range. In that instance, you’re spending $2 to make one, that’s […] in. A good deal on a $200,000 house, in our mind would be paying 85 or 94 with another $30,000, $35,000 of repairs. Now, you’re in that house set at about ¢65. You can put all occurring costs and closing cost in that deal and still make a handsome profit. Your cash investment is not $30,000; now it’s about $10,000 or $12,000. Now you’re investing $12,000 to make $25,000 or $28,000. That’s a good deal. That’s what we try.

Clint: You have probably walked on that deal that I gave you. You wouldn’t fund that deal, would you?

Rick: We probably recommend that you try to get that purchase price reduced. What we would tell you is, “You know what, we worked really hard to find you and make you a good customer. We want to loan money, but we don’t want to loan you money on a deal that you’re not going to do well on. If you really want to do that deal, you probably need to find a local lender that might be able to help you get more comfortable with it and we’ll just catch you on the next one.”

Clint: Exactly. I find a lot of people don’t appreciate is that when you’re dealing with that thin of a number, it doesn’t account for the hiccups that could come along. You may find other problems in that property. Your contractor walks off on you and all of a sudden, you’re under water before you’re halfway through it because there wasn’t enough profit built into it. I think that’s really important because there’s a lot of hard money lenders out there that loan on deals and they don’t look at it from that perspective. All they’re focused on is getting the people the money and then it fails, fine, they take their property back, they sell it, and they make a profit on it.

But what I like about what you all are doing is that you really analyze the deal itself. You want people to find success. You’re not going to tell them, “Hey, any deal is a successful deal as long as it fits our lending criteria.” What you’re really looking at is whether or not they’re going to be profitable at the end of the day. I think that’s important. That people should take that to heart.

Oh, by the way, you don’t loan on all 50 states. There’s about 30 states or so that you loan in, depends on where the property is located and they could find that on your website. If they want to get ahold of you, where should they go?

Paul: They go residentialcapitalpartners.com and click “Apply Now”. Wherever people are, we’ll reach out to you once you’ve submitted your information.

Clint: Great. They go to residentialcapitalpartners.com and at the top there, at the menu bar, I’m looking at it right now, you hit “Apply Now” and then it takes you to the application page to request a load or to get the whole process started as what we were discussing. That’s great.

Paul: That’s right.

Clint: That’s easy as that guys. Just go to residentialcapitalpartners.com. If you’re looking to work with someone, a hard money lender, to put your deals together that truly understands the business and wants to make you a success, I recommend that you check these guys out. Great product, everything I heard today has been awesome. Is there anything that you’d like to add in closing?

Paul: No. thanks for the time and thanks for the chance to interview with you about our business.

Clint: Awesome. Well, thank you guys. I appreciate it. I hope some people reach out to you. With that, I’ll speak with you soon. Thanks a lot.

Rick: Thanks, Clint.

Clint: Alright. Take care. Bye-bye.

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