Hard Money Loans For Real Estate Investors
Why use your own money, when you can use someone else’s to invest in real estate? Become an informed investor. Today, Clint Coons of Anderson Business Advisors talks about hard money loans (HMLs) with Albert Bui, mortgage planning specialist at Avenue One Capital.
- Loan Types and Trends: Percentages and prices for conventional, portfolio, commercial, and hard money loans
- Hard Money Loan Issues: Shortage of contractors and property doesn’t sell quickly
- Tradesmen/Contractors turned Cons: Sell a bill of goods and require money upfront before rehabbing properties
- Project vs. Profit: Project must be completed before interest rate hikes and profit loss
- Experience-based Product: How many exits out of hard money?
- Exit Options: Plan ahead by considering assets, income, and credit to decide whether to sell, refinance, rent, or lease
- What’s the difference? Some say, ‘pre-approval’; Albert says, ‘purchasing power analysis’
- Qualifying for Loans: How much income do you expect to make and from what sources?
- Credit Card Debt: Everything you charge, changes debt into income
- With/Without Tenants: Use portion of rent to offset mortgage; qualify with your income
- Lender Qualifications: Level of service and time they’re willing to spend with you
- Terminology and Questions: What type of investors do you work with? How many real estate investors have you worked with? Are you a real estate investor?
- Three Legs of the Stool: Credit, income, and assets/cash
Albert Bui’s Phone: 949-514-5106 (California) or 425-951-5300 (Washington)
Full Episode Transcript:
Clint: Welcome, everyone. Hi, it’s Clint Coons here with Anderson Business Advisors and this is another edition of our weekly podcast. This week, what I thought we would talk about is lending because I know many of you who are listening on this are dealing with lenders because you’re out there buying real estate, we have to it’s part of the game. I mean, why use your own money if you could use someone else’s money to put the deal together.... Read Full Transcript
When we get into borrowing money, we put our deals together, there are several different types of loans that are available to us. Of course we have conventional loans, portfolio loans, commercial loans, but a lot of people now who are flipping property are looking at those hard money loans because those lenders really fit that need for the person who wants to come in and rehab a project. They know it’s going to be a short duration, but the problem—this is what we’ve seen—I noticed that with a lot of real estate flippers is that, you’re getting into these loans and you think you’re going to be out of it within 60 days or 90 days and you can’t because maybe the property doesn’t sell right away, but that’s typically not the issue.
It’s the contractors. If you are listening to what I’m talking about there, that you’ve been flipping properties or even if you are rehabbing existing properties you intend to turn into a rental, there is a shortage of tradesmen out there to come out and work on our properties. Unfortunately, sometimes we get people that are just shysters. They are going to come out, they are going to sell you a bill of goods, and before they get started, they need money upfront. Next thing you know, you’re behind on the project. The work is not progressive they billed you for and now you are scrambling to find someone else.
The issues then become, you still have this hard money loan hanging over your shoulder, looking, asking for money and you know you got to get that project to completion before the interest rate hikes on you or just eats up all your profit.
What I like to do today is I’m going to bring on a good friend of mine, Albert Bui. He’s a mortgage specialist and whenever I’m dealing with someone who has problems in this area, I refer them over to Albert. I’ve been doing this for several years because he’s a real estate investor himself, so he understands the position the client is in, but he also understands the product. With that, Albert, how are you doing today?
Albert: I’m doing very well, Clint. I appreciate you having me today.
Clint: Thanks for coming on. This has got to be an important topic. Right before the show, we were chatting a little bit about what you’ve seen, what’s going on the market right now. Before we get into the meat of this moving out of hard money loans and the issues surrounding that, why don’t you share with everyone what you’re seeing right now.
Albert: Right now, I’ve been getting a lot of calls from all the lenders because Avenue One Capital where we operate as a broker so we can place the loan anywhere where it makes the most sense for the client, and I’ve been getting an inordinate amount of calls from all the medium type money. I refer to medium money as anything between full doc where we’re in the 3% or 4% rate ranges all the way from there, all the way up to about 7%, so there’s products in between that are stated.
Sometimes, we call them in the past as subprime, but they aren’t exactly because they have options for people with great credit and alternative means to document income. For instance, folks who have bank statements and they don’t have any taxable income on their tax return. I get a lot of calls from those folks and it’s interesting, this time in the market.
Clint: Totally. That is a concern. One of the strategies that I teach is to bump up your W-2 income through a C Corporation. Get yourself on payrolls so you can look better to those traditional lenders, but there are people who, that just doesn’t work. They’re typically real estate investors. They have a lot of real estate. They don’t show a lot of taxable income because they are doing cost seg to bump up their depreciation and that makes it really difficult for them. What I’m hearing from you is that those people that are moving into this intermediate range type of product. What is that product called if somebody is looking for that?
Albert: There’s a wide variety. Some of them will come and become a different flavor. For instance, one will be the 12th and 24th month bank statement programs and the lender basically underwrites it as the same as a full doc loan except that they don’t use actual income. They’ll just take your deposits going in your bank statements.
For instance, if you get $200,000 deposits annually, they will cut that by 50% so they’ll give you a $100,000 net income. In a way, it’s alternative doc. They are just taking a stated amount that’s coming in. Usually, you have to show them 12 months of bank statements and we look at all the deposits and they count anything that comes in, even cash, even […], any receipts in your business account, 50%.
That’s how we calculate our income. It’s like you receive a W-2 of $100,000, similar, but the pricing is higher. We are in the 5½ to the lower 60s, on that bank statement program.
Clint: Interesting. With a lot of times when you are dealing with lenders, they like to trace funds, what happens if I have an out of state property manager and they don’t give me money every month? Maybe it’s every other month and then every once in awhile, I get a big chunk of money that hits my account from a distribution from another business entity that I have. Does this create problems?
Do the lenders look at that and say, “You get money. I guess you have a pattern, every other month from your property manager, and it’s going to range put under your CapEx, but that comes in.” And then they see a big hit for $60,000 because you took a distribution out of an LLC that’s going down. Is that going to throw them off? They are going to look at that and say, “No.”
Albert: No. I’m used to it. When I review people’s files and do a pre- approval, I will proactively ask where did that money come from? What’s the story behind it, because I already anticipated them asking. Underwriters will ask for deposits, typically for anything that’s more than half of your monthly income. If your monthly income is let’s say $10,000, any deposit over $5000, they’re going to ask.
Sometimes people will have the deposits come in at $4999, for instance. Whatever half of their income is. If they come to me in advance, I will plan that ahead. If I review a profit and loss and let’s say we are on track for $200,000 this year. Then I know that every month, that person is making $16,666 so half of that is $8300ish. I would tell them, “Hey, make sure all your deposits are under that, if you can, just so we don’t have any headaches to the loan process.” You are still bringing your money over. You’re doing more distributions in smaller fragments. That way they can keep operating their business, we don’t want them to be at a standstill.
Clint: Okay. This product exists out there for people. Now on the hard money side, for someone who is looking to get that, there’s a difference there in different hard money lenders, as far as the interest rates are offering. Some people told me that they are in it at 14% and I’ve heard other people getting at 8%. Maybe you can speak to that so people know what is available to them.
Albert: What I found is that there are pros and cons to all of them. Even the ones at higher rates. However, I found also are the ones in the single digits. They will be very close to full doc. I almost called it medium money because they would often require exterior appraisals, maybe sometimes full interior and exterior. They will require soft credit checks sometimes, some of them don’t.
The ones that don’t require the least amount and have the least conditions usually are higher rates. The ones that offer better rates, generally have more restrictions or they’ll require the property maybe cash flow with market rent. There are many requirements for the cheaper money, but if you have the time to do it and you don’t need quick closing, then you can go with one of those outfits.
The local outfits, I found have higher pricing, but it’s very fast closing. I can get some of the local outfit companies to have the wire over in five days and I’m already working with them sometimes to pay them off so we’re all in sync.
Clint: Some of these are, I think, on experience as well, right? They look at the investor?
Albert: Exactly. What I’ve been told—I haven’t used the experience-based product yet—the experience-based product is based on how many exits out of hard money. So you don’t necessarily have to sell the property. You just have to refi out of it or sell it. Exiting out of the hard money gives them comfort to give you a better rate.
Clint: Wow. That makes a lot of sense. I’ve been wondering how they determine that. They’re looking to see if you’re paying the loans off and the more loans you’re paying off—they don’t care how they are getting paid off—then the more comfortable they are with you as a developer. It’s flipping property. That’s a great nugget. I did not realize that. I’m going to work that into my three day events. Great.
We were talking about the hard money lenders and what I see happening now, with this market because of what we originally began with people that are into these properties on a hard money loans it’s either going to resell it at a higher rate or they’ve just been it too long and there are problems now with the contractor. They just getting killed with the interest, with the properties sitting there and they are trying to sell it. What do you do in that situation? There’s got to be some solution, right?
Albert: It depends if they come to me at the last minute. There aren’t as many options at the last minute because we haven’t planned the returns. We haven’t planned income or deposits, usually, because if they come to me at the last minute we won’t have time to plan. I have to do the best I can with what I have, but for the folks I do plan in advance, it’s a well-oiled machine at that point because at least I have already created plan A, B, and C to get out of that hard money in advance. Whether it sell, refined and rent, lease option as we’ll discuss it then I’ll refer it to their attorney to prepare the mindset of putting it into that option just in case. Those are the exit options I try to give to people.
It involves many other parties. We’re usually working with accountants and attorneys like yourself, Clint, and it’s a very interesting game. It’s much different than purchase and refi with realtors, that market, which is the main market that usually lenders work in.
Clint: Okay. There’s something you said there about coming and planning early. We don’t wait until the last minute that we are not going to be procrastinators. I want to focus on one aspect of what you just said. Let’s assume that I’m doing a flip deal. Maybe I just got started with my very first flip and I’m running into those problems with the contractors because they just don’t have the experience as well. Maybe that’s holding me back and I’m thinking, “All right. I’m going to sell it this. Maybe the markets got a little soft,” but I realized that if I don’t get out of this HML at 14%, I’m not going to make any money. I might lose money.
Let’s talk about it this way, I’ve been into the project now for 90 days. What do I do? Then let’s contrast that to someone who is going out and doing their first deal. What should they be doing with you? Let’s take both of those if we could.
Albert: What I do is, it’s very cliché in the industry for the lending industry at least, a lot of folks will call it a pre-approval. Pre-approval is a bad stigma because it assumes that somebody is trying to buy something. So, I call it as a purchasing power analysis. Essentially, it’s a max pre approval. I’m trying to figure out the max purchasing power of any given borrow and then just whatever their situation is today. Then I ask them questions because it’s part of the playing process like, “How much income do you expect to make? What sources are they making it from?” Because all these actions they are taking during the year change their pre-approval constantly.
Even buying a cup of coffee on a credit card changes your debt into income as a joke. Buying a couch changes your debt to income. I try to help them plan the debt income side so they’ll always be able to qualify so that they have that ability to take out a hard money loan way in advance. Even with hypotheticals.
They’ll ask me for instance, “If I buy this rental, how will that affect my buying power?” I tell them, “Hey, if you buy cash flowing properties, that improves your qualifying capability.” Assuming your cash flow isn’t on paper with all depreciation added to that, of course. Those are the things we talk about and everyone has unique scenarios.
I have regular W-2 salary people with a couple of rentals all the way up to people who live purely from their stock portfolio and rentals to people who only live on notes to installment income royalties. I’m not just working with salaried folks which is the easiest type of […], of course. That’s what I deal with day-to-day.
Clint: All right. Here I am, I’m three months into this deal, and I realize I need to get out. I call you up. What you’re going to ask me for? W-2s?
Albert: Right, if you have them.
Clint: If I have them? All right. Let’s say I have them. What else am I going to need? I assume we’re going to look at the property. It’s not fully rehabbed yet. That’s going into the analysis, right? To take out that first position?
Albert: Yeah. If the property isn’t currently leased, then we have to hit you for the full payment. Tax, insurance, and the proposed mortgage of your hard money, whatever the conventional loan you’re using is. You have to qualify that with your own income if you have no tenants. If you do have a tenant, we get to use a portion of that rent to offset the mortgage. It’s easier to qualify that way. You get less of your personal income needed to qualify.
Clint: […] stop right there, when you say tenant. So, I’m rehabbing a property. I’m not going to have a tenant in there while I’m rehabbing.
Clint: What happens if I decide to enter into a lease arrangement with my corporation?
Albert: Then your corporation will have to be in existence for two plus years to use that lease. You could do that, but the income backing it has to be substantiated, which means two years at that point.
Clint: So if the corporation’s been in existence for two years, then you would count that income.
Albert: Yes, most lenders would.
Clint: Most lenders would, huh? They don’t have to […] P&L […] sheet?
Albert: They will. They’ll ask you for a P&L until year-to-date. That would be August 6, 2019. Then, they’ll ask you for 2018 and 2017 returns. Oftentimes, if we are talking about conventional financing, you might be able to get away with one year if you get a one-year tax return findings, because most lenders will run this through Fannie or Freddie’s automated system and they’ll tell us if we can do one year or two years. There’s a variety of factors that affect that decision and we can tweak it to get the desired decision, but if it says one year, that means you could technically show just one year and use that lease.
A lot of these short terms Airbnb people use that model where they have the Airbnb company operate the corporation and then the assets are held by an LLC and they rent to each other. I have that a lot happening lately.
Clint: In that scenario, though, let’s say I have a person in there. The lender is not going to ask the tenant for tax returns to verify how much money they’re making.
Clint: Why would it be the corporation? Why are they going to ask for that?
Albert: Because it’s an interested party and you own all the shares.
Clint: How do they know that?
Albert: They’ll look at Secretary of State and they’ll see the officers.
Clint: All right, but if that information does not show up in there?
Albert: Then they won’t ask. It’s just a lease agreement.
Clint: That’s part of the strategies. The way we set them up is that we’re a proponent of anonymity so I’m telling people, “Hey, do not have your information listed on the Securities and Exchange website because people are going to look. If they look and they don’t see that, they assume it’s an independent third party.”
Albert: That’s right.
Clint: That could help.
Albert: You just have to do the pros and cons because if you don’t have your name on there and you don’t get the income from it, you also do not have any income. If you do get income, we are going to ask you how you are affiliated with that company that you get income. Are you employed? You own shares? You might have to go deeper on that, but if you have income elsewhere and you already qualify and your name is not in the company and that company signs a lease to rent from your property. All we need is the lease and the security deposit.
Clint: But if your name is on both sides of the lease, that gives it away.
Albert: That gives it away. You might as well just invite […].
Clint: Make sure you have someone else signing that lease that’s a member of the company that’s not related to you.
Clint: Those are the things that maybe you look at. You talked about the rental income, but again, a lot of people do not have rental income and they got the property, it’s not even fully rehabbed yet, and they have to get rid of that loan. So, as long as they can show that they have income outside of the property to qualify, it becomes then an income-based loan.
Albert: Right, to move out. Part of the planning process is to make sure they have backup sources of income. They tell me they are doing so many flips a year. We try to plan how many they actual turn per month to get the idea of what qualifying situation, income-wise, they are going to need to be in this year or next when they file. That’s the fun for me because it takes a science of lending to an art at that point so it’s always interesting.
Clint: Going back to the guy that’s just getting started, if I’m doing my first flip and I get that HML so I can secure the property because I’m going to do a 30-day close or even shorter and I’ve already has this lined up, I’ve got it, now I should contact someone like you and we should then begin planning to get myself out of that sooner rather than later.
Albert: That would be a good time, ideally before, but I know most people. They usually don’t do it until they made up the decision to even buy a flip, when they start looking at all options.
Clint: All right. With the loans, I take it there’s no pre-payment penalty?
Albert: On conventional loans, there aren’t. Some of that medium money we talked about earlier, that segment between probably in the lower fives up to about seven. Some of those do have prepayment one to three years. You can take a higher rate and absorb that prepayment if you know you’re not going to be in it for the long time. It’s sometimes a more beneficial scenario to take a little bit higher rate and have the flexibility to weave in and out when you want to.
Clint: Yeah because if I’m a flipper, I’m not going to be in it for three years. I plan to be in it for three months, but a lot of times you’re in it for six months, so trying to get away from that hard money for that long period of time, so we’re doing that. That makes sense. There are options out there, lending products, if I have a hard money loan, some of you feel trapped by it and they don’t have to be if they just start up a conversation with someone like yourself and see what your options are.
I know a lot of times this does come up. When people get started, they may have attended a few workshops and they’ve run up some credit card debt. How much of an impact would that have? Because with the hard money lenders, they don’t seem to really care if it’s an asset based loan. What I’m moving out on that hard money loan into one of these other products, is that going to hurt me too bad?
Albert: Yeah, the utilization on your card or the percentage you spend versus the limit per card, not the total of all your cards, affects your credit score. That question involves mainly the credit aspect of a conventional loan because we look at all three legs of the stool. We are looking at credit, income, and assets or cash. Most hard money lenders are only asset based. They’re looking at the value of the property and how much liquidity you have to pay for the rehab and the carry interest cost until the time you exit. That’s all they care about generally.
For us, we care about everything. Income, assets, and credit. What you mentioned with the credit card is yeah, if you use up your card at loads or Home Depot and you maxing those things out, you’re FICA might drop 80-100 points in the short term. We want to plan that ahead of time because we want to maintain all credit income and assets so that you have your option to refinance out of there or sell the properties. You’re comfortable at night sleeping because you got two ways of getting out of this thing. That’s what I would say about it.
Clint: Are any of these products asset-based only? Or are they all profit-based?
Albert: For the prime money, a paper like conventional?
Clint: I’m not going to do conventional because that’s not going to happen. I’m looking for that product where I’m no longer paying 14%, but maybe I’m down around 8%.
Albert: They will still require credit. There are some with no credit, but they’ll be very low loan-to-value. There might be 60%-70%, but no scores or no income.
Clint: Got it.
Albert: That is an advantage. You can have your rate from 14% or 12% down to 6% or 7%. That would be an option. There’s another option now to get out. If you don’t have full docs and you didn’t plan in advance, there is a plan B for you. This is one of those.
Clint: Yeah, because I’ve seen a lot of people and they are getting maybe 90/70 loan. So 90% on the purchase and 70% on the rehab of the property and then they are trying to get out of that.
Albert: That’s very popular lately. I’ve seen 90/75, 90/70.
Clint: Got it. What else would you want to share with the listeners about the current market you think would be important to them?
Albert: I’ve noticed, mainly in Seattle areas that the heated market in Seattle has been rushing south so it’s been interesting to see how it’s still on fire on the south end. Puget Sound, Pierce, Kirsten, and South King, it’s on fire now, but it’s moving more and more out of Central Core Seattle. I think that’s been interesting.
In terms of lending, I always want to stress, of course, the planning aspects of it. It’s good to have a lender who’s on page with you, with your investing objectives, to figure out what your investor MO is because everyone is a little different on how they would approach it. On my end, I’m flexible with how everyone approaches. That’s what I like to impart.
Clint: We have listeners from all over the country, not just Washington State. Will we able to work with them if they’re, say, in Florida?
Albert: Right now, I’m licensed in of course, Washington, California, Oregon, Texas, and Colorado. I’m working on Idaho right now. We’ll be in the Coeur d’Alene, Boise, Moscow Idaho, Nampa, and we’re already in […], but not right now. I’m expecting that in about a month.
Clint: All right. To those listeners that are on the podcast right now, they can’t necessarily use you for this. What tips would you provide them or tell them if they are going to look for someone with your skill set in their area, is there a question that they should go through with the broker to make sure they truly understand the products and what they are working with?
Albert: From my point of view, I use lenders, too. Sometimes I’m not licensed and I need a loan. So, I would generally ask some questions about qualifications. I’ll say, if I did this how would that affect my ability to qualify? If I bought a car for instance, if I bought this rental with these numbers, if they are even going to take the time to walk me through it. That level of service is what you really need if you are looking for this type of lender. Are they going to take the time to walk you through and explain to you how that would work and how that would affect your decision or not.
Some lenders, I’ve noticed, they just put paper to pencil, they just fly through, and they don’t really take time to explain anything. You get no planning aspects. You are basically going to be transactional. You are going to apply and pray at the time you applied, you are going to qualify for what you need.
That’s pretty risky. For some people it works, when you have really high W-2 incomes. They can make a lot of mistakes when you have high incomes. But if your income is tight, you are making 50 or 100 or less, it’s tough because your debt-to-income will generally be an issue, a lot of times unless you are in the middle of the country and you are buying $50,000, single families.
Clint: What I’m thinking was if I was going to go out and start calling up brokers, I’m sure they are going to say, “Oh, yeah. We are going to work with you.” But you know what’s going to happen. I start working with them and they are going to pull my credit. Then, they are going to send it to underwriting, and underwriters going to kick your back and say, “No. We can’t do this deal.” I’m going to be pissed.
Albert: Yeah because it a waste of your time.
Clint: Exactly. Would you recommend, “Hey, ask them these three questions right up front.” You are going to get a sense whether or not they understand your mindset because it’s where you are coming from and they’re not a paper pusher.
Albert: First, obviously the simple question is, have you ever worked with real estate investors and what kind of real estate investors? Not just people who buy one single-family rental and they’re an accidental landlord. That’s not a real estate investor. You start as that, but we’re talking about people who have portfolios. They are managing their portfolios. “Tell me an instance where you’ve helped an investor out with hard money or private money.” Maybe you might even want to use HML and PML to see if they understand what that is because that is an indicator that they understand real estate investors because they are on bigger pockets or other investing websites, reading and understanding.
I have to spend an inordinate amount of time into InvestorIQ. I’m always reading about real estate investment because I invest as well. I’m using hard money, private money. I’m always looking at it, figuring out how I can use the loan product to help the investor or myself because I’m thinking, these mainly are strategies I’ve used or strategies I’ve thought about myself.
Like how to use FHA 203(k) rehab loans. How do I buy a fourplex, rehab it, maybe live there for the minimum 12 months as agreed, and then move out, for instance. Do a house hack, as we like to call it. Those ideas about lending, that’s the type of conversation a lender should be talking about. If you are looking for a lender who is going to be a long-term asset to your real estate investing business.
Clint: That’s right on. When you said the HML, the PML, said you understand those terms and if they said yes, the follow-up questions should be, “What do they mean to you?” Don’t just take the word ‘yes’ because they could be snowing you on this and say, “Define it.” Then you’ll get a true sense. That’s a good way to test them out.
I always tell people, when you are dealing with a professional, too, be it an attorney or a CPA, one of the questions you should ask is, “How many real estate investors you worked with? Are you a real estate investor? What type of investors do you work with? Then what type of […] do you buy?” Then you get a sense whether or not they understand you. You talk about those terminologies. That’s key because if you are not an investor, you’re not going to understand what a PML or an HML is in the lending space.
You just threw out something there about this fourplex and FHA loan on that. There are so many products out there. How does someone, an investor go about determining or finding out about these types of products because they can change what I’m looking for. If I knew, I could get special financing for the FHA to do a fourplex as long as they live there for a year. I might be looking for a fourplex now rather than a single-family.
Albert: Yeah. I originally started with FHA just for the homeowners, but then I realized, “Wow, these could do up to fourplex. You only need 3½ down.” There are rules and stipulations of how to use it and all of that so you do want to find the lender who started out using FHA, but again, to prep this prior, you want somebody who gets all the investors acronyms and what they mean. Not only what they mean, just like the definition, but how to use them and have that conversation. So, it does take a more in-depth conversation. It can’t just be a couple of questions, but those are starter questions we mentioned before on how to get that conversation going.
The FHA program is something I’ve been looking forward in a while. It’s one of the last programs that are available right now to get started in small multifamily units with very little money, so I’m always keen on that. Unless you are a veteran, you can do zero down, but not everyone is a veteran.
Clint: Got it. They’ve got your information on the show notes so if they also want to reach out to you, how fast would one of the listeners get a hold of you?
Albert: My name is Albert Bui, Avenue One Capital, and the number is (949) 514-5106 for my California folks. For Washington, (425) 951-5300.
Clint: Great and I also have your email there on the show notes if they want to send you an email.
Clint: Albert, thanks for coming today. This is going to be really enlightening for the listeners to learn about mortgage products and what their options are so they don’t necessarily feel like this is a dead-end. I’ve seen too many real estate investors go down that road where the properties being for closed are. I just talked to someone yesterday, hard money lender got into them, couldn’t get the project done in time. They ended up giving it back to the hard money lender, but you don’t have to have the information. Become an informed investor is what I could tell people.
Albert: Definitely. I agree.
Clint: All right, sir. Thank you for coming on again and hopefully we’ll be talking to you soon.
Albert: Appreciate having me. Thanks, have a great day.
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